Friday, April 27, 2012

Arising Rulings Issues with New Priority Ruling

Earlier I met up with Zach, Rob, and Link at Gamer's Haven and I played a few games against Link to see what it was like with the new priority ruling change. Because I know Inzektors will become more popular in our area and Veiler alongside it, I wanted to go over a few ruling things that came up in our games and undoubtedly will in others. Now I've always said I'm pretty bad when it comes to rulings, but what I am good at is looking shit up and trying to ensure that I find the most accurate rulings. I avoid Wiki as much as possible, and while nothing on Pojo Q&A is "official", it's as good as we're gonna get. Ain't no Netrep around anymore. This will serve as both reinforced research for myself, and a place for others to see what I've found for their own personal knowledge/understanding.

Inzektors vs Effect Veiler
1. After activating effect, before equipping:
So everyone knows that if for example you summon Dragonfly, opponent has no response, you say "activate effect", the opponent can then activate Veiler to negate Dragonfly's effect. In this scenario, no Inzektor monster will be equipped. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

2. After activating effect, after equipping:
This is the one that creates the most amount of confusion. So again, I summon Dragonfly, no response, effect, no response, so I equip Hornet to Dragonfly. AT THIS POINT, before using Hornet's effect to send it to the graveyard and pop a card, YOU MAY activate Veiler targeting Dragonfly. The end result is that Hornet WILL GO TO THE GRAVEYARD, and Dragonfly will not special summon anything. Hornet will not get to pop a card as well, even though it was "sent to the graveyard". Why is this? The best explanation I have found so far is a post by member DragonXDoom on the Pojo Q&A forum:

"Monsters can only be maintained in the S/T zone if they have an active effect that allows them to, or another effect allows them to. In this example, Hornet is being maintained by the effect of Dragonfly. Since Dragonfly was negated, Hornet can no longer be in the S/T Zone, so it is sent to the Graveyard. An exception to this rule would be monsters that equip themselves to another monster, such as Inzektor Giga-Weevil or Dark Necrofear."

As well as:
"A player CAN Veiler or Fiendish in response to Hornet equipping....and then because Dragonfly/Centipede's effect is negated, Hornet can no longer stay equipped....therefore it is destroyed via game mechanics, and no effects go off."

Also, Hornet's sending effect is Spell Speed 1, so you never had any kind of priority to send. There is also a window between 'after equipping' and 'sending' in which you or the opponent can play spell speed 2 or higher cards.

Quote from Redshift, a fairly reputable Pojo Q&A guy:

"After Dragonfly's effect resolves and Hornet moves to the Spell & Trap Card Zone, since a chain just ended that means a window to respond to that chain opens. This opportunity is only limited to Spell Speed 2 or higher effects. If both players pass and don't respond, now the turn player is able to continue with the Main Phase, in which that player can Summon, Set, use Hornet's effect, etc."

3. After sending the Inzektor to grave:
Not sure why anyone would do this, but there is still the possibility. So let's say I successfully equipped my Hornet to Dragonfly, and my opponent lets me send Hornet to the grave. Here, my opponent can activate Veiler on Dragonfly, so what is the end result? Hornet will pop a card, but I get no special summons off Dragonfly. This one should be rather simple like #1.

Sources that support these answers:

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4

Inzektors vs DD Crow

There are many instances in games 2 and 3 where you'll have a Hornet in grave, Summon a Dragonfly in hopes of getting that Hornet from the grave to equip, but your opponent activates DD Crow to banish it. So what happens - is that it and continue with the turn? Nope. A lot of people know this already, but you'd be surprised at those that still don't. Here is a good breakdown of what happens from here:

"You can chain crow to it, and 1 of 3 things must happen;
1) They have to equip an inzektor from the grave
2) They have to equip an inzektor from the hand
3) If there are no inzektors in the grave/hand, they must reveal their hand.

They get to look at my hand?? Yup.
Also remember that Inzektors do not target, so if you have for example a Hornet in grave and a Hornet in hand and they Crow, you can still equip the one from your hand. Likewise if you simply had 2 Hornet in the grave.
Link 1
Link 2

Inzektors vs Fiendish Chain

Ok, so we clarified a bit with what happens with Veiler. What about Fiendish Chain? 
Well, fortunately, it works the same way as Veiler does. Lucky!
Source: Link

Inzektors vs Forbidden Lance 
One could rationalize that since Lance makes it so the monster is unaffected by spells/traps so the Inzektor equip should fall off, but this is not the case. What happens is that any effect the monster gives the equipped monster (+500atk via Hornet, level manipulation, etc) goes away. The monster is "unaffected" by the Equip spell card. That doesn't mean it can't be equipped to it. So in our example, I'd get to send Hornet to pop, and special via Dragonfly. The only difference is that while Dragonfly was equipped, it wouldn't gain the 500 ATK boost nor be Level 6.
Source: Link

Zach and Rob played, and with Zach running Wind-Up, naturally Torrential vs Rabbit came up. 

Wind-Up Rabbit vs stuff in general
Since priority is gone, that means that WU Rabbit shouldn't be able to bounce away when a removal card is activated in response to the summon right? Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on which side of the table you're on) this is not the case as Wind-Up Rabbit has a Quick/Fast Effect, rather than Ignition. This means that once it has been successfully summoned, WU Rabbit's effect is "live" and can be used.

Here is a good list of answers when it comes to WU Rabbit in general:
● It’s a Quick Effect (Spell Speed 2) and can be activated at any point during either player’s turn, except the Damage Step.
● If you use this effect in your Draw Phase, the banished monster will return in the Standby Phase of that same turn. But if you use the effect during your Standby Phase, the monster will not return until the next Standby Phase.
● If Book of Moon is chained to this effect and flips the target monster face-down, it is still banished. Furthermore, it is banished face-down, and returns during the next Standby Phase face-down. This means that it cannot be Special Summoned with Leviair the Sea Dragon, as you cannot verify its Level.
● If your opponent takes control of your Wind-Up Rabbit and uses its effect, who it comes back to depends on how it was taken control of. When your opponent takes control of it ‘permanently’, with a card such as Monster Reborn, Creature Swap or Leviair the Sea Dragon, then Wind-Up Rabbit will return to the opponent’s side of the field and will remain there. If your opponent took control of it ‘temporarily’, with a card like Enemy Controller or Mind Control, then Rabbit will return to the opponent’s side of the field but immediately switch back to you.
● Returning the banished monster does not start a chain, and is not considered a Summon.
● If you Special Summon a Wind-Up monster, and then banish it with Rabbit’s effect, when that monster returns it will still be considered a monster that was Special Summoned for the purpose of Fossil Dyna Pachycephalo’s Flip(like) effect.

Link 1 (3/4 down page)
Link 2 (Wilson Tsang explanation video - WU Rabbit explanation starts at the 6 minute mark.)

Bonus for Hero players/against Heroes:

Shining misses timing if it is destroyed at something other than Chain Link 1. So if I attack with Shining, you activate MST, then chain Mirror Force, Shining will miss timing since Mirror Force is Chain Link 2. If it is the other way around though (Mirror then MST), then Shining would not miss timing since Mirror Force will be Chain Link 1. Don't let people get away with not activating and chaining their shit correctly. Likewise, remember to chain correctly if you're trying to play around Shining. 
Source: Link

Rescue Rabbit vs Effect Veiler
And apparently people are confused about how Veiler and Rescue Rabbit work, so here it is:
If I normal summon Rescue Rabbit and you activate Veiler, I have to option of tributing and banishing it to pay its cost. That is not to say that I would still get to special summon 2 'nillers though. This is because Rescue Rabbit's effect activated on the field. Cards always activate and resolve in the same location, none of this 'activate on field, resolve in grave/banish' stuff.

Quote 1:

"When veilered or fiendished chain, rabbit can still activate (both do not prevent activation). In order to activate, you pay the cost, thats banishing the rabbit. To keep negating the effect, Fiendish Chain must stay attached to the monster. But because the rabbit is not there anymore, the effect can go through. Veiler has not the restriction of having to be attached to the monster, so even though rabbit is now banished, the effect will be negated."
Quote 2:
"Think of it this way,
If the monster is face-up on the field the moment you say "I want to activate its effect" before any costs are paid at all, cards like Effect Veiler, Forbidden Chalice, Debris Dragon, etc. will negate it, no matter where the monster ends up.
Ex. Rescue Rabbit, Stardust Dragon, Thunder King Rai-Oh, Lonefire Blossom, etc.

If the monster is else where, like the Graveyard, when you declare "I want to activate its effect", before any costs are paid, cards like Effect Veiler, Forbidden Chalice, Debris Dragon, etc. will NOT negate it.
Ex. Reborn Tengu, Colossal Fighter, Dandylion, etc.""

Link 1 
Link 2 
Link 3 


  1. Okay wait. I was just on Netrep last week. Anybody know what happened?

  2. Lol I was "on it" when I wrote this post as well and now it says "site suspended". Odd. It said on their site that they hadn't updated since like 2010, which is why I said "Ain't no Netrep around anymore". Now I guess they really aren't. Perhaps they're just temporarily down to update/overhaul the site?